the system need a simple and cheap yet powerfull videochip like the game boy advance has.

i just canґt afford (and donґt have the money) to pay for a gfx card so expensive as the xbox360.

msx back in time is simple, somewhat a little but yet powerfull machine.

*simple, cheap and powerfull* sure will make the day!

here. if the msx could do the graphical capabilities of this game, iґll be satisfied(at a minimum point).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y0_bvr76jk

Dude, what the hell is that music? A random generator?

Anyway, I think you can safely forget about that 3d stuff & MSX..

Why are they creating stuff for VSU, but not for GFX9000, which already exists?

OTOH: this will make more people have MoonSound and GFX9000 compatible hardware... So it might be more attractive to build software just for that hardware as well...

Quote:

the system need a simple and cheap yet powerfull videochip like the game boy advance has. i just canґt afford (and donґt have the money) to pay for a gfx card so expensive as the xbox360.

Try buying the GFX9000 + Moonsound... it will be more expensive than the VSU.
If you canґt afford it, too bad for you... lucky those who can!

Quote:

Why are they creating stuff for VSU, but not for GFX9000, which already exists?

Those demos were made by Oazem himself, the creator of VSU

Quote:

OTOH: this will make more people have MoonSound and GFX9000 compatible hardware... So it might be more attractive to build software just for that hardware as well...

Yup!
One of the ideas is to start with fully compatible games for gfx9000 - on VSU it will have "more stuff" which would be disabled on plain gfx9000

Of course, as time goes by, more stuff will be VSU only...

Quote:

Try buying the GFX9000 + Moonsound... it will be more expensive than the VSU. If you canґt afford it, too bad for you... lucky those who can!

That may be so when you have nothing yet. However, quite some people already have a Moonsound and/or G9k. Depending on the 'and/or' a complete Moonsound+G9k solution will be cheaper than a complete new VSU.

But I really see a problem with content and the installed user base. There's already an installed base of -iirc- 250 or 350 G9k users. A number of them also has a Moonsound, and otherwise the Moonsound has also sold into the hundreds. I for one have both the Moonsound and the G9k, and I actually plan to do something for that combi, some day, but not too far into the future. For that we (infinite) need to do the following: extraordinary good tools! We're actually working on that, but it surely costs time. The thing with such a hi-spec config is that you don't go making a Pac Man or a Rise Out for it. The games you want to do are the games that are impossible on MSX1/2/+/R systems: big platformers with multilayers, big RPGs with layers (clouds, lower platforms (like Xak)), or even large shmups with large enemies and many layers, heck how about a real diagonal SimCity (using layers to walk behind buildings).

All very nice, but such games are huge undertakings for which you need extremely talented pixelers and coders (as usual, music is the easy bit here ), and while I'm not stating that the VSU people over there are *not* talented, do keep in mind we have equally talented people here in Europe, or -heck- even NL alone. So far: little to no hi-spec products. What's the biggest large-scale scene-game you've seen, in -say- the last 4 years? I've said it earlier, and I will say it again: even if tomorrow the best-ever videocard will appear to us MSX'ians (a Sunrise Graphics12000 with both 2d and 3d, 16 scrolling layers, unlimited (cpu-limited) sprites on your screen and per line, 32bit argb color, 512MB videoram/texture ram, OGL etc. etc.), even then I doubt we'll ever see original scene-made games for it.

Having said all that: do me a favor and prove me wrong.. I'm not against the VSU concept, but I just think ppl should look at the MSXdev contest and think about *why* it is so popular..

Slotman: i mean cheap prices. look for the improvements of the original GameBoy hardware and the MSX until now. MSX hardware comes from early 80 an the GB comes from 1987 and still mantains its compatibility on 32 bit (or 16 bit thumb) enviroment with the original price still almost the same.
i think the MSX could atract more users if have improvements from the hardware point but for an affordable price. the VSU is a very piece of good hardware improvement, but i can say that its going to the same point of PC-FX, PIONEER LASER DISC COMBO, and other hardware that in theory, could do better from their original hardware, but killed themselves with poor line of software and huge price.

the cheapest the hardware, more the number of the users BUYING the thing. Not the "lucky" ones.
how it will cost the VSU in BR "Reais"?



wolf: i didn't exactly mean that the msx needs "3d". GBA hardware actually does not have any 3d hardware built-in hardware. and smashin drive is a good game in ...3d! (the music from the video isnґt the point). and i agree with you the point of comparisson of vsu and gfx9k+Moonsound. but iґm still telling you that the point of these hardware not having so much needed software is THAT THE PRICE AND ACESS TO THIS HARDWARE IS NOT POSSIBLE FOR ALL THE USERS IN THE INSTALLED BASE, SO WE CANґT HAVE THE THING TO PROGRAM OURSELVES. iґm not meaning that is "out of interest" of erevyone, but remains only in the hand of the little that can afford it.

just to complete: more people using, more interest in the hardware and software and more to add in the $$$ numbers. itґs all about money.

If it's purely a way to get for instance the G9k widespread in your country then it's fully understandable. However, if you stick to 1 v9990 chip (and an opl4 for all I care) then whatever your people are making will automatically work here in the European countries (mostly NL tho) with people who have at least a G9k and preferably a Moonsound too. If however the VSU contains way more stacked chips then the VSU becomes unique again and if ever we want to see something running (your people created on the VSU) over here, then we're more or less required to buy a VSU ourselves. And *then* I can imagine that people would say: "ok, not going to spend around $400 for that, bad luck then". The result would be that all your games 'n things remain there where they've been made: your place. I'm much more in favor for a kind of global MSX standard (as in, a number of extensions everyone has) instead of a few very unique MSX'es everywhere around the globe.

as i can see, you understand my point of view: global msx standard.

i believe that in your country, many already have the gfx9000 and the moonsound, and only now something going to start to be "in use" of this combination. that's a good point believeing that
the installed user base eventually will receive the software for this combination.

but what we can say about the use, for example, the laserdisc player for msx?
there are few games, but only those who actually have the computer and the expensive player
could use software for it. in the past years....nobody really cares about this = market
failure = few units sold = very few software for it.

yes it was new back in the time, yes it has a good quality of video for msx, yes could be usefull for a lot more things, but investiments in the player proved that not all users can actually buy the thing(or have acess to it). so i'll pass eventually.

i'm taking the very same way of gfx9000 and the moonsound.

and i think MANY will pass too, not only for the pricey combination, but
for the avaliabillity for the mass market. so in the end, you could prevail the lifetime of this
end the quantity of software for it.

u can pick road fighter, plug in your msx1 and play. the msx1 has a huge installed base
and consider the newest generations of msx can play it too. imagine if you could not play
it because the msx2 comes without the standart psg or inabilty to hold msx1 graphics.
the msx2 will not be be that seller without the compatibility! kay nishii set the standart the way it could be usefull for the future. not all pc-88 software is compatible with pc-98, neither X1 with x68000, or FM-7 with FM-77 or EU zx spectrum with RUS spectrum... but the msx and msx2 actually is.

win the case of no avaliable of moonsound, gfx9000, mp3 cart, ide, extra ram, ethernet, usb, etc.
the only option: STICK TO THE MSX THAT I ACTUALLY HAVE AND CONTINUE TO PRODUCE FOR IT AND IGNORE THE EVOLUTION.

or in the worst cenario you can always wait to the peripheral be emulated. IT'S FAR MORE CHEAP, and
eventually will be avaliable almost FOR FREE! this is not msx. this is pc mass market!
so u can produce awesome high quality music with the moonsound, outstanding graphics with gfx9000 and surelly we (the people that not buy the thing back in time) will use that software INTENDED TO STIMULATE THE USE OF THE ORIGINAL HARDWARE in the emulators. Without even power on the msx that we have and could not use the great hardware...

VSU is incredible. no doubt. but for 400$ and with the question u made of the hardware be avaliable just for the local people, surelly i will wait for the emulation.

back in the late 80s, in brazil, the people that cannot afford pay for an original msx2 or the "transformation" for the msx2 or 2+, CARCHANO made the awesome ACVS 2+ cart that could be used in ANY msx. plug the thing in you old and dusty msx1 and WOA! laydock2!!!! fray! space manbow! awesome! good old days. remember that the msx2 NEVER came oficially for brazil market.

the msx now has so awesome hardware, but almost useless!
my ideia of standart follows the same one of early nishi days and pre msx path:

take the BULKY HUGE comination of the segagenesis/megadrive plus the segacd/megacd and the 32x/super32x. you payied the highest buck for this monster and it could not even be equalled (in price and technology) with the sega saturn! what a waste of money and potential!

pick the now dated gameboy advance 32 bit. more powerfull and affordable than the sega combination. i can emulate it on my MING phone! a pocket celular phone! included in the mp3 and flv/mp4 videostream.

my point is that the msx can be upgradable too without cost too much and satisfy the entire group of users and even atract a new user base! i heard of some people of msx scene that migrated to the gba scene just because the gba is very easy to program with very good results.

i think it's time to realise that we need the msx3.
a new machine true to its roots but with a new concept.
my ideia of the unit is to be just a base, the size of a adsl modem only with the cartridges port and the SD card slot. MORE NOTHING.

every hardware both old and new integrated in one little boxed machine, with 16m colors, 32 bit full spec(at minimum) powerfull basic, powerfull symbos, opl4, mp3 player, flv player if possible, internet connection, etc.

keyboard, mouse, fdd drive? ALL WIRELESS. 32gb sd cart COMPATIBILITY with other earlier msxs and other cosmetic things at a psp price and you get my money instantly. and i bet this will approach new users and new developers. but thats my HUMBLE opinion.

GFX9000 Rulez!!

And don't forget, the Moonsound isn't available anymore. Well, technically, it's on pre-order, but when will it be produced? With the VSU you will for sure be able to have one. I want one

Well, I could want one too; but will it be seriously built or will it never be more than a bulky prototype?. Is there an estimated size of how much can it measure when finished?. The level of integration must be pretty high if you want to fit all that ICs in a decent space.

Btw, I still want an easy to build and cheap enhancement to the old and trusty TMS9929.

Salamander2: most of your points are clear, and not questionable at all: it's about availability of hardware. My point is this: the VSU is imho too big to have fully-VSU-supporting games working on our (European) systems. And I don't think us Europeans are going to invest in a VSU, esp. those who already have a fully equipped system (G9k, Moonsound, IDE/CF etc.) If the VSU would be this: v9990, OPL4, IDE/CF interface, (ethernet?), then it would be the perfect all-in-one update device for your region. And many people around here can then play your games/demos because quite a few people have the same config! Only difference would be that we have separate carts where you have a big board with everything.

So, the advantages/disadvantages of a limited board (1 chip of each kind):
+ Content also works in Europe on our current systems
+ With less chips it's cheaper (following earlier discussions about the price of the 1chipMSX, $400 is a lot of money in your region)
+ I think there's less development time required for a finished game
- Less layers and graphical tricks, however the G9k on its own is quite capable of doing good games already