ASCII receives 1000 One Chip MSX orders

By Sonic_aka_T

Enlighted (4130)

27-05-2005, 12:19

Just 3999 to go!

By selios2000

Hero (564)

27-05-2005, 13:11

ASCII: We've waited 10 years, just release it when you have implemented a 100% MSX2 compatibility...

By Sonic_aka_T

Enlighted (4130)

27-05-2005, 13:15

remember, you just need to 'flash' the thing to turn it into an MSX2 (or a toaster for that matter )

By viejo_archivero

Paragon (1395)

27-05-2005, 13:53

Woa, an MSX1 is a perfect first step!. I'll get one, I only beg for someone who make/enable/emulate a tape io port for this cool 1chip!.
/me waiting for Bazix preorders!

By Sonic_aka_T

Enlighted (4130)

27-05-2005, 14:10

@viejo: that shouldn't be too hard using a 'microphone in' or even using the USB port. It would prolly be best to do this using software though, not hardware... Ofcourse patching the BIOS ROM shouldn't be very difficult in the one Chip MSX. Finally I can replace that annoying yen sign!

By msd

Paragon (1510)

27-05-2005, 15:33

On no, not questions about tape again. Just put your stuff on another medium before you switch to the 1CM and forget about the tape.

By ro

Scribe (4914)

27-05-2005, 17:06

hey, no tape.. no MSX dude! hehe.
cool news tho.. have to c if this is gonna happen.. ohwell. blaaaaaaaat. gaap

By Grauw

Ascended (10707)

27-05-2005, 18:18

"ASCII: We've waited 10 years, just release it when you have implemented a 100% MSX2 compatibility..."

I REALLY don’t understand complaints like that. It will have FlashROM which can be upgraded. So you will NOT have to buy new hardware once MSX2 support is finished.

If you didn’t know that, get informed before you throw your opinions around. If you don’t like it, don’t buy it.

~Grauw

By Ivan

Ascended (9341)

27-05-2005, 18:53

I wonder how many One Chip MSXes will be sold in Europe after a long period of "no official" ASCII/MSXA releases here. 10? 10.000? 10.000.000?

By iamweasel2

Paladin (709)

27-05-2005, 21:13

Hi,

I'm hearing people saying that all we need to do is to upgrade the FPGA to have MSX2/2+/TurboR. I thought that the VHDL source code would not be available to us, only the compiled code. Will the VHDL source code be distributed with 1CM ? In case it is true, what about license? will it be GPL ?

I must say that, if the source code is available and it is GPL, I was wrong when I said that 1CM was not what I expected (since it was only a MSX1). With the source code and permission to improve it, even if ASCII give up MSX again, we can go on alone as we did all this time, improving 1CM and making it what we want it to be.

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (10092)

27-05-2005, 22:29

.. as long as there're enough gates left ..

By snout

Ascended (15187)

27-05-2005, 22:46

... should I make the Bill(ion) Gates pun then?

By SMDNearDark

Master (136)

28-05-2005, 01:20

if they make a one chip turbo-r i'll consider buying it, until then i'll use my real turbo-r, i don't think that a msx 1 will sell 3999 in the msx community

By iamweasel2

Paladin (709)

28-05-2005, 08:00

Snout (or anyone):

Any word from ASCII about if VHDL source code will be available to 1CM buyers and what conditions (license) (if it will be available)?

By Ivan

Ascended (9341)

28-05-2005, 11:32

if they make a one chip turbo-r i'll consider buying it, until then i'll use my real turbo-r, i don't think that a msx 1 will sell 3999 in the msx community

That's the big question. How many One Chip MSXes will be sold outside Japan? ASCII/MSXA know the sales of the new MSX MAGAZINE editions in Japan so they can make, in fact they've made, roughly estimations about the sales of the One Chip MSX in the Japanese market. But in the rest of the world it is a big mistery how many of them will be sold (specially in countries with MSX tradition like The Netherlands, Spain and Brazil). The stats of visits of MSX.org show that there's interest enough in MSX to sell One Chip MSXes outside Japan.

BTW, what do the members of other scenes think about the One Chip MSX? Probably they could also implement their ZXs, C64s, CPCs, SMS, NES, ... in such device.

And about TurboR support, is it really a very important thing to implement at first considering the small soft available for that MSX generation? First MSX, then MSX2 and MSX2+ and, in the end, MSXturboR support if there are enough gates. Step by step.

By karloch

Prophet (2159)

28-05-2005, 12:48

I couldn't agree more with Ivan

By Sonic_aka_T

Enlighted (4130)

28-05-2005, 12:58

there are enough gates.One Gates is more than enough thank you very much!

By Sonic_aka_T

Enlighted (4130)

28-05-2005, 12:59

Oh, that was done already...

By snout

Ascended (15187)

28-05-2005, 13:19

iamweasel: The entire idea behind the One Chip MSX project is that the endusers can change the device by altering the VHDL code. So yup, the VHDL sourcecode for the MSX1 will be included as well. There probably are some limitations as for what this VHDL code can be used for (I can imagine they can't be used by large companies for commercial purposes, for obvious reasons), but as a member of the MSX Community you are free to do with it what you like and publish your changes in the way you like. Sending them to Bazix/MSXA, making them an official 'MSX Standard enhancing'-piece 'o VHDL code is just one of the options.

(ok, just in case: I'm 99,9% certain about this )

By elements

Master (179)

28-05-2005, 19:57

Konnichiwa.

-Article for 1 chip MSX

ASCII Corporation begin pre-order of 1 chip MSX.

http://www.ascii.co.jp/1chip/

IF you want buy 1 chip MSX, you must do pre-order of 1 chip MSX. You
cannot buy 1 chip MSX without pre-order. Don't forget pre-order if you
want buy 1 chip MSX.

To Europa and USA
(A)Surface
1 chip MSX: 19800Yen
Local sales tax: 990Yen
Postage(to me from ASCII Corporation): 1000Yen?
Surface: 770Yen
My commission: 500Yen
Paypal fee: 940Yen
----------------------------------------------
Total: 24000Yen(174,80 Euro)

(B)Surface with registerd mail:
1 chip MSX: 19800Yen
Local sales tax: 990Yen
Postage(to me from ASCII Corp): 1000Yen?
Surface: 770Yen
Registerd mail: 410Yen
My commission: 500Yen
Paypal fee: 956Yen
---------------------------------------
Total: 24426Yen(177,90 Euro)

(C)SAL(Economy airmail):
1 chip MSX: 19800Yen
Local sales tax: 990Yen
Postage:(to me from ASCII): 1000Yen?
SAL: 1080Yen
My commission: 1000Yen
Paypal fee: 971Yen
-----------------------------------
Total: 24841Yen(180,93 Euro)

(D)SAL with registerd mail:
1 chip MSX: 19800Yen
Local sales tax: 990Yen
Postage: 1000Yen?
SAL: 1080Yen
Registerd mail: 410Yen
My commission: 1000Yen
Paypal fee: 987Yen
------------------------
Total: 25267Yen(184,03 Euro)

To Brazil and Korea
(A)Surface:
1 chip MSX: 19800Yen
Local sales tax: 990Yen
Postage: 1000Yen?
Surface: 770Yen
My commission: 500Yen
Paypal fee: 940Yen
------------------------
Total: 24000Yen(R$644.82)

(B)Surface with registerd mail:
1 chip MSX: 19800Yen
Local sales tax: 990Yen
Postage: 1000Yen?
Surface: 770Yen
Registerd mail: 410Yen
My commission: 500Yen
Paypal fee: 956Yen
------------------------
Total: 24426Yen(R$656.26)

You need not paypal fee if you donot use paypal.

I changed my Email address. Please update your address book. My new
Email
address is:

msx4ever@nifty.ne.jp

Sayonara.
Ikeda

By poke-1,170

Paragon (1783)

29-05-2005, 03:43

ehmmmmm....huh?

By poke-1,170

Paragon (1783)

30-05-2005, 01:38

Isn't bazix concerned with this?

By Sonic_aka_T

Enlighted (4130)

30-05-2005, 09:14

I don't see why they would be...

By Samor

Prophet (2165)

30-05-2005, 09:15

indeed. I'd be willing to order directly from ASCII if they need 5000 so badly, but then they shouldn't be lazy and make an english order page

By poke-1,170

Paragon (1783)

30-05-2005, 13:16

not concerned about,but concerned with... meaning their job ^_^
haha funny,they're not even put into mass production yet, but
it's big business already.

By snout

Ascended (15187)

30-05-2005, 13:36

Concerned isn't the right word. Of course it would be nice if people at least waited a bit until Bazix made an offiical announcement, but whether or not, where and when to order a One Chip MSX is a choice everyone has to make by themselves.

By Samor

Prophet (2165)

30-05-2005, 16:09

well, you could pull a "Dutch government" on "wait for bazix" propaganda, but that wouldn't work

..seriously though, I don't feel like ordering from some Japanese page I can't read.

By Sonic_aka_T

Enlighted (4130)

30-05-2005, 16:53

..seriously though, I don't feel like ordering from some Japanese page I can't read.You could use babelfish and find out what it doesn't say!

By Samor

Prophet (2165)

30-05-2005, 23:11

hm.. it reads:

"You cannot utilize the software of the cassette tape. "

had to bring that one up

By poke-1,170

Paragon (1783)

30-05-2005, 23:52

since the french have voted against the european constitution,does that mean mars2000 won't get a one chip msx ?

By Sander

Founder (1871)

30-05-2005, 23:54

Elements: did you ask permission to Ikeda for publishing his e-mail? I did so before with his MSX-Print and Ikeda asked me kindly to stop doing that. Now his e-mail will be indexed bij google and picked up by mailbots. Just wondering.

By Algorythms

Champion (288)

31-05-2005, 00:21

...which probably is the reason why he changed the address

By Edwin

Paragon (1182)

31-05-2005, 12:49

I checked the specs of the FPGA. It's one with approx. 12000 LEs. According to the Altera website, a full z80 implementation is almost 4000 LEs. I'm estimating that the V9938 is more complex than the z80 and will require more than 5000 LEs. I don't have any realistic numbers for the support chips (Mapper, PSG, SCC, FM-PAC, etc), but it seems to me that with full MSX2 support, the FPGA is pretty much full. That is, if it will even in there together. MSX2+ or turbo R support seems out of the question.

So what I'm really interested in is some official numbers on the used Logical Elements on the FPGA for the various things. Which should give an idea about the space that is left to play with.

By snout

Ascended (15187)

31-05-2005, 13:51

An article in MSX Magazine 3 mentions the amount of kB's of VHDL source code for several chips. Of course, this is not the same as the amount of LE's, but I reckon the two are somewhat related to each other. Besides, I don't expect changes like improving the sprite limitations to take a lot more LE's, looking at the code published here. Still, VHDL is quite new to me ;)

The sourcecode sizes mentioned in MSX Mag 3 are...

Z80 - 159kB
V9938 VDP - 139kB
PSG - 18kB
MSX2 subrom - 93kB
SCC - 22kB
FM (YM2413) - 41kB

Furthermore the VHDL is being compiled on free software (Quartus II Web Edition), which has the benefit of being free, but I believe there are quite some (expensive) compilers out there that do a better job at optimizing VHDL code.

By flyguille

Prophet (3031)

31-05-2005, 18:12

no, the LEs used is not related with KB of source code, it is related with its complexivity that is not related to its size.

By snout

Ascended (15187)

31-05-2005, 18:22

I understand that, but is it possible to create 5kB of code that uses 10.000LE's or 1MB of code that only uses 10LE's? Of course, the relation isn't 1:1 (especially not if there are a lot of comments in the code), but they might give a very rough indication of the amount of LE's used.

By Edwin

Paragon (1182)

31-05-2005, 19:41

But that doesn't make the information more accurate than my estimates. Which still leaves the wish for reliable numbers.

By snout

Ascended (15187)

31-05-2005, 19:53

well, I've seen the complete MSX2 config including OPLL, SCC and MegaSCSI emulation at work. As stated before, timing issues are the problem in that one, not the amount of gates availabe. I dunno how much harder a 9958 is than a 9938, and how much gates there are left, but of course the FPGA chip has its limitations.

As you can read over here, MSX Association is already making plans for a next generation One Chip MSX with more gates, a default MSX2+/turboR/boostedMSX config and lots more. This makes the first One Chip MSX to me personally not only a 'historical device' (the first commercially produced MSX computers in 10 years), but also a 'proof of concept'-machine, which already gives quite a few capabilities that are very interesting to MSX users and FPGA developers.

Even if we know the amount of gates the current One Chip MSX code uses, it will be nearly impossible to tell what the limitations of the first One Chip MSX are, though. People have been extending the limitations of the real MSX computers time and time again for years on end now, I have more than enough reasons to believe similar things will happen with the VHDL code to the One Chip MSX ;)

By Algorythms

Champion (288)

03-06-2005, 01:26

Seems to be slowing down allot... When`s Bazix gonna start with the preordering?

By Samor

Prophet (2165)

03-06-2005, 01:37

they've sold a 1337 number of 1chip msx'es though

By Leo

Paragon (1236)

30-07-2005, 20:12

Talking about FPGA gates utilisation :
I agree a V9938/58 should take a little bit more gates than a Z80 , also because the Z80 code
must have been optimized for years by so many users and the code for the VDP implementation
might not be that optimized to minimize its occupation.
But the rest of the chip PSG+ mapper should be very little.
One diference beween V9918 and V9938 is the dotclock, in other words the MHz frequency of V9938 should be twice faster. And it can be an additional difficulty.

ASCII receives 1000 One Chip MSX orders

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